Tuesday, April 10, 2018

“More should carry Narcan antidote to counter opioid overdoses”

By Chivis Martinez for Borderland Beat

Thursday morning, the U.S. Surgeon General, while speaking at the National Rx Drug Abuse and Heroin Summit in Atlanta,  urged those at risk, to keep the Narcan antidote on hand.

Further, he recommends family and friends learn how to use the antidote, saying you don’t have to be a first responder to save a life.  Adams says more than half of all overdoses occur at home.



Using Naloxone (Narcan) can reestablish a breathing after it is injected or even sprayed in the nostrils, bringing overdose victims back from the brink of death.

An naloxone shot, available without a prescription for untrained people, works much like the EpiPen, or sprayed in the nostrils swiftly  restores breathing and usually out of danger.

Overdoses have jumped in numbers, many can be attributed to Fentanyl being widely sold on the streets and also infused in heroin.   According to estimates from the Centers for Disease Control 91 Americans die from an opioid overdose each day.
While once prescription only, Walgreens eventually began selling over the counter and now  the drug, which is often referred to by the brand names Narcan or Evzio, is available over the counter in most states and is regularly used by first responders across the country.

Although more expensive,  Narcan nasal spray is preferred over the injectable Naloxone version.  Narcan spray is apx 80 dollars a dose. 

Adams states that for those uninsured persons, the antidote is available at no or low cost but emphasizes that soon;
 “Costs should not and in the future will not be a barrier to accessing Naloxone for anyone in America.”   He is seeking additional federal help in increasing access.
One of the most outspoken Maine’s opponents of the request for federal help is Republican Gov. Paul LePage.  His argument is that the antidote does not treat addiction and actually discourages people from seeking addiction treatment by addicts having a safe guard when faced with overdosing.

However, lives and funds will be saved.  Naloxone, does not draw people to addiction and would be a small part of the overall problem.  Funds and time spent by first responders would be saved. So, if the practical side of the proposal is not impressive, one would hope saving lives should? 

As Adams said, Naloxone will not single-handedly solve the opioid crisis and will be used "in conjunction with expanded access to evidence-based treatment."

"There are people out there who think Naloxone doesn't make a difference: you're just going to go on and misuse substances again," Adams said. "That would be like me saying I'm not going to do CPR on someone having a heart attack because if we save them, they're just going to go out there and eat fast food and be back here all over again."
A personal story: 
My only brother who I will refer to as “T” was an accomplished jazz musician, artist and followed our father into the profession of Heliarc welding.  
He also was a heroin addict.   
His passion was boxing, Golden Gloves,  and was a sparring partner of a world champion.  A man who he met when they were both teen addicts.  The champion became clean in order pursue his dream.  At “T’s” funeral he spoke, saying “T” was his toughest, most talented sparring partner he ever knew of and in his opinion a better boxer than himself  because of his natural talent and instincts.
We were incredibly close; he was loving, funny, compassionate, talented and smart. And he was so loved by all of his family. But strictly speaking on topic, I witnessed his addiction up close and personal when I was a Jr high schooler forward.  In those days there were no treatment centers, as are today.  
“Kicking drugs” meant cold turkey.  Withdrawal meant nausea, vomiting, thrashing, freezing, shaking, sweats, etc.  my mother and I helped him through.  I was 13.  Withdrawal continues for about 3 days with another 3 days or so to feel somewhat normal.  “T” made us promise not to call an ambulance during a withdrawal or O.D.  Because in those days that would end with a trip to jail, a place he would avoid even if there was a chance it could mean his life. 
Witnessing an overdose is most frightening. I saw it once.  “T” was in the bathroom when my mother and I heard a loud thud. I was clueless to the origin of the sound but my mother knew immediately what was happening.  She raced to the bathroom and banged on the door shouting “T’s” name… no response.  She ran to her desk drawer and retrieved a small Philips screwdriver, then manipulated the lock and gained entry.  “T” was slumped sideways on the john, his head resting on a wall. He was wearing a tee shirt and summer shorts, syringe was still inserted in his thigh. My mother tried in vain to awaken him.  The two of us attempted to get him on his feet, at 110 pounds I was the “bigger” of the two of us, so it was not happening, his body fell to the floor.  Too much for a 15 year old.  I was shaking, crying, praying, screaming “Is he dead? Is he dead?” 
My mother broke her promise to “T” and called for an ambulance.  The hospital was only 5 blocks away.  His life was saved.  And he was then taken to jail.  His “crime” was being an addict. Naloxone was available during that time, but only through a medical facility.  The antidote was invented in 1961.  FDA approved a few years later. 
The pivoting point in my brother’s life is when he met a beautiful, wonderful girl who he turned his life around for.  She would not marry “T” unless he could become clean.  He became clean, had a relapse, clean again for good. He married and had a daughter, who he thought was the most amazing thing on earth.  He was 26 when she was born. 
And he was 26 when he died, three months later. 
No, not by drugs, he was murdered.  After the journey he traveled, it wasn’t heroin that killed him, it was a bad guy. My father and I identified his body at the county coroner’s office.  It was the first time I ever saw my father cry.  He felt like such a failure.   He wasn’t.  I could not imagine a better father.  His entire life and joy was his family, I don’t know a person who had a better childhood than I did, because of my parents.This can and does happen in the best of families, who do the best they are able to. It can happen in any family. 
Adding insult to injury, his killer was acquitted when two witnesses were scared to testify.  My brother’s daughter was only 3 months old.  She never knew her father, but I did my best to see that she knew him through me.  She became a federal agent. She married a DEA agent and they spent a few years in Mexico City fighting the fight against drugs. 
My brother left me a gift.  He loved me very much and continually lecturing me on drugs. Using himself as an example, and sharing horrific stories. It was effective; I never experimented with any illegal drug, not even marijuana.  Oh, for sure many around me in school smoked, and in the 80s cocaine was passed around at parties, but I was never tempted.  I was scared straight so to speak. 
He was an addict.  He also had value. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  “T” was loved by all who knew him, especially his family, and after all these years that have passed, his memory remains fresh, and his absence still matters.  For those who think his life did not matter because he was an addict, I am here to say, you are wrong.

Read Dr Adams full JAMA article using this link


Below is an excellent documentary "Anatomy of an Overdose" Anatomy of an Overdose explores both the science and the human toll of heroin overdoses.  From the St Louis Heroin Project.  Featuring on; what and why the uptick in overdoses.  Includes the introduction of Fentanyl to heroin [cutting heroin] and an introduction to the Howard and Joyce Wood simulation center where physicians are trained using human-like electro-mechanical mannequins, which remarkably simulate overdoses.  Addicts speak about their addiction and overdosing.  21 minute film.

51 comments:

  1. Chivis would Ipecac be just as effective as Narcan? I’ve often wondered about this. I grew up seeing it in households. But I’ve never actually known anyone take it. From my understanding it’s supposed to induce vomiting after accidental poisoning. I also know it’s cheap. - Sol Prendido

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    1. I don't think vomiting will help since most opiates are abused IV, smoking, or snorting.

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    2. Thanks for answering GrandeRojo. I really don’t know to much about drugs. Drinking is about as far as I’ve ever been able to take it. That in itself is pretty crazy at times. But if a person has to have vices. I’d say just keep it under control. Lest it ends up controlling you. - Sol Prendido

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    3. Rojo is correct. Ipecac is for ingested "poison" and would do nothing in an overdose

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  2. Yes we should all start carrying this to help the worthless feinds dying in the streets....or next time you see someone dying of an OD just record it and share the video, what a joke. Lets keep supporting the heroin problems..

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    1. Yeah and let’s stop treating obesity, self inflicted gun shots, smokers, skin cancer, car wreck victims, crack babies, astronauts, race car drivers and heart disease.... it’s all a choice right? Let’s stop treating people that make stupid choices and stupid comments....like 637....

      No one wants to be a heroin addict.... just like no one wants to be fat or have a heart attack from eating an unhealthy diet... but shit happens and in these cases education and proper treatment can help....

      Dugs can kill just like driving too fast can kill... does a car wreck victim not deserve to be treated? If we didn’t treat people that make bad choices all fall victim to something this blog would be empty...

      GC from Tampico to Tampa

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    2. 6.37pm you may regret being so smug as it can just as easily be a family member that od's, even worse a child who picks something up off the street thats had fentanyl on it. We carry first aid kits and if that drug is available so easily why not aire on the side of caution?

      My son has anaphylaxis, we were incredibly careful with what he came into contact with and still he picked up a jammie dodger that a friends child had dropped (i was outside and she thought it didnt matter even though id explained everything several times). My son (now adult) was spiked with that horse tranquilizer when clubbing, thank god he was okay but it can happen to anyone, not just addicts.

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  3. That Fentanyl's a game changer, real nasty shit man !
    In the Canadian city I live in all the cops carry narcan now because of people dropping like flys from bad laced shit. I think there's a non script version of noloxone you can buy but I'm not sure.
    I can always tell when a bad batch of shit comes to town by the amount of emergency vehicle sirens that I hear all through the day & night. I live a couple houses down from a trap (When 1 place is busted, another springs up) and there's been twice as many junkies laid out cold on the lawns around here since 2015 and even though these junkies piss Me off, they are human so..

    What I wanted to say is our city has a couple Government "Safe consumption" sites that are equiped to handle Fentanyl od's and there has been No deaths in these sites to date. They say most Fentanyl od related deaths happen in the persons own residence. Therefore there should be non script narcan available to the public I would think.
    Legalization is a real argument these days imo, I think society is already dealing with it at ground level and have a good Idea of how to deal with it.
    Its not like legalization would automatically make everyone turn into heroin addicts. If I wanted smack I could get it 24/7 faster and easer than a bag of weed witch I have take a bus to get. The fuck'n government would make a fortune tax'n heroin ! Legal shit wouldn't have Fentanyl or the even the REALLY POTENT Carentanyl additive mixed in. Both Fentanyl and Carentanyl are synthetic opioids manufacturerd for pain that have to be microscopically accurate to be properly formulated into a patch or pill and perscribed properly by a professional with years and years of university to prevent an overdose situation .

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    1. Taxes make politicians blind to anything else other than special spend projects, best option would be buying directly from Burma, Afghanistan, iran, or mexico or China, Hong Kong, laos, Cambodia or vietnam. And the American or Canadian drug traffickers would be put out of business...
      Why protect middlemen? Fuck them, and make the drug providing institute keep The money and be accountable and responsible to reduce drug addiction. Not to live like a swamp politician with private jets and pubkic HOES paid with government salaries...

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  4. Actually, more should be done to curb America's ferocious appetite for drugs.

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    1. 8:50 yeah, take back the MORE THAN 100 million dollars the US congressmen and senators took to pass the legislation to legalize the OXY prescriptions and sales to unknowing americans for their "pain", that would be a start,
      And US Senator Orrin Hatch $170 000.00 kickback and US Congressman. Tom Marino $150 000.00 who was designated US Drug Czar and had to withdraw his name when people started bringing his crap out to the light for all to see...

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  5. Such important stuff! Thanks for posting.

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  6. Those guys in the film seem like ok dudes, makes you wonder ya know?
    What caught Me off guard was when they both said they would seek out the 90% or the unknown, potentially fatal, Fentanyl mix because it's "The REALLY Good stuff", that's fucked up ! They're pretty young though, I don't think an older more experienced addict would think that way.

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    1. It's "good" just means you go to sleep right away, and never mind coming back to anywhere.
      The surviving family and friends are the ones who suffer except for dogs who don't feel the pain.

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    2. "Dogs who don't feel the pain" you've obviously never had a dog, pal.

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  7. It got worse after Chapo gave Mencho a few tunnels and a submarine.

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  8. Wow thanks for sharing more of your brothers story.Hes been gone a really long time and it still pains you and you miss him.

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    1. thank you canadiana for your kind words

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    2. Looks like you owe something to those that hooked your brother since he was a teenager,
      Drugs, weapons and gangs was the plan and quitters were punished, while murderers got exonerated in court oe given short sentences discharged in less than half the time.
      It is still a problem all over the US in spite of all the people that brag about the US being so tuff on crime, apparently specially when it comes to punishing racial minorities even if they are innocent and specially since US police officers have been trained to shoot to kill for any reason or no reason, some options like raping suspects with broken broom sticks and covering it up are Nwe York Police Department tolerated policies "but not officially encouraged"

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  9. Chivis, thank you for sharing your personal story. I am sorry for your loss and it makes me see things a little differently.

    Thank you Chivis

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    1. that is what I was hoping for, there is a misconception that addicts are loss souls living and dying in the street. That is the exception most are not.

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  10. After watching someone OD on the street, I went for the training, and have carried it since. Hope to never use it

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  11. Good, important information. My nephew was accepted in a great university. By second year he was changed and couldn't cope and dropped out. He had became a heroin addict. some kids should not go straight into a 4 year, a transitional community college for 2 years is better for them taking transferrable credits. there is tremendous pressure on some who are not prepared for whatever reason. could be socialization, whatever. He was surrounded by love. He is 9 years clean today. all us aunts and uncles participated in his cure along with parents. He did it the community college way, and graduated last year from a 4 year close to home. every child is different. How brave you are chivis to post your brothers (and your) story. and I thank you. Question: did your niece become an agent because of her father's history?

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    1. I never asked but always assumed so

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  12. The US owns this problem.

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  13. If drug use (ALL OF IT!) was legal then we would have a LOT less death!

    The WoD is the fucking problem! Legalization is the only solution.

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    1. @10:23AM I would be extremely interested to hear how legalizing highly addictive drugs (an oft repeated solution) would decrease the number of deaths. Please provide non-anecdotal sources.

      Please, go into detail on exactly how legalization should occur, what would be the limits of access (if any), etc.

      Would we also cover addiction services on health insurance for those people whose addiction did not occur from medically prescribed drugs? Who is expected to pay the inevitably increased insurance costs? Would those costs be restricted to the person who is using/abusing substances, or would you expect everyone that uses that particular insurance company to cover the costs through spreading of increased fees?

      --I am all for helping those that are seeking help, but I still have a hard time feeling pity for those who repeatedly overdose without even attempting to recover, even failed rehab attempts.

      KB

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    2. I would like you to provide me with imperial evidence that the current drug war is working, that addiction rates have gone down since its inception that all these criminals are making less money and killing less people because of the fine job our law enforcement is doing while still respecting our rights and not making swiss cheese out of our constitution. Also please provide in detail how our rehabilitation system is the best way to treat drug addicts because you know everybody who comes out of rehab is a completely new person refreshed and positive ready to make a difference in the world with not even a thought or urge to return to their previous habits. Such a wonderful system we have today, creating a utopia here on earth. Right??

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    3. Logical fallacy: Red herring

      You are incapable of supporting your own argument, so you are redirecting back at me. You are also making the assumption that I am saying the current system is the best method; it's not, and I willingly acknowledge it. There are a number of improvements and changes that could be made that may have a positive effect on the system.

      ----

      We could attempt enforced rehab, with something akin to a minimum security jail setting; though I would also recommend better living accommodations. A guilty plea or sentence in a court for abusing substances would result in the individual being forced to go to a rehab facility for a year to get the individual away from the situation that caused them to start using in the first place. Visits would be controlled but more open than a jail. Provide a job program to teach trade skills so they have something to go to when they are released; or if the company you already work for allows it you could even telework from inside the facility. Allow community colleges to provide courses inside the facility if they wish (either free or at the expense of the individual, not the facility). Successful completion of the program wipes the offense from your record.

      Enforce the death sentence on dealers who can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt as the seller to someone who died due to overdose (please note "seller" not someone who shares with a buddy that then ODs). Same goes for those who distribute to those dealers, and on up the chain.

      A significant portion of the jail population is repeat offenders. Start eliminating those who have no wish to reform and commit serious crimes such as assault, rape, robbery, murder, etc. instead of life sentences. Yes, I know it sounds cold, and cruel, and heartless, but those individuals have shown themselves to be a willing drain and danger to society so unless we're going to establish an island penal colony a la Australia's origins it makes no sense to continue to support them.

      ----

      Full legalization is not a solution to what ails us. The problem is cultural; too many people expect to be taken care of instead of being responsible for themselves. Why not do tons of alcohol, or do drugs that alter your sense of reality, when you know the government will take care of you? You may feel guilt over having to steal to support your habit, but you still do it because you *need* it function. It's not your fault you got addicted, you just wanted to try it out (the only people that can make the claim legitimately are those prescribed the drugs).

      There are entire reports written by Colorado and Washington state detailing the negative effects of marijuana legalization; you just don't hear about them over the cheers from the states on how great the revenue increases have been. Even though those same states aren't following through on supplying increased funding to schools beyond a mere pittance of the revenue raised, and they fight against any attempts by local police to enforce laws that don't specifically list marijuana (such as smoking in public).

      Each of those states has become a net exporter of weed, producing far more than can be used by people in the state and illegally transporting the "product" east. And it has only marginally decreased the amount of Mexican bud trafficked north, especially when you consider the number of illegal grows in legal states that are run by larger criminal groups.

      Oxy is legal, but now it's getting the blame for the opioid epidemic. People are chasing the bigger high from fentanyl analogues, knowing they could die they still do it. Do you really think that legalizing other substances will make things better?

      KB

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    4. I'm just here to point out that KB also committed an informal fallacy when they asked to be provided with details on how legalization should occur. The subject was about legalization and reducing deaths/crime and not about the *process* of legalization.

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    5. Not so. There are a host of informal fallacies, please state the exact one you say I committed.

      Technically, the original statement made @10:34AM was itself a logical fallacy (Begging the Question) as no proof was presented while making the statement as if was fact.

      In order for legalization to reduce deaths/crime there must be a process attached to it. You can't simply legalize all of it and walk away expecting everything to be perfect. Statements were made. "If drug use (ALL OF IT!) was legal then we would have a LOT less death!

      The WoD is the fucking problem! Legalization is the only solution."

      I asked for proof that this would be the case, and how they thought legalization should proceed in order to meet their statement regarding less death through legalization. The individual @4:46PM replied by attempting to redirect to a separate topic (the current system) rather than defending the prior statements they had made with any factual argument.

      KB

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    6. Opium Farmers are among the worst paid, but the money they make is all they got going for them.
      I am sure the US government could pay better and corner the product and give it away for free specially if people sign up for rehabilitation and have LOTS OF MONEY LEFT OVER compared with the expenses they incur in their "Eternal War on Drugs" from here to eternity since...
      --apjjf.org-Peter-Dale-Scott:
      Operation Paper: The United States and Drugs in Thailand and Burma, (form his book American War Machine)
      --The Opium Wars, too many books on the theme, some blame the arabs, some blame the British for importing it from INDIA,
      --House of Deception by Sheldon Burton Webster, is just a novel using fictitious names for real characters, if real history is too hard to handle.

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    7. KB, I replied to you but I guess it wasn't allowed thru. If you have email I'll send you my reply.

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  14. Thanks for the story, very touching and well writen. I’m sorry for your loss, but thankful for the good weekend you were strong enough to take from it. Only Tuesday, and I’ve had my tears for the week. Thanks for all the work chivis!
    Finesse in Texass

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    1. Thank you. It was not easy to share but my friend DD was so supportive and pushed me a little buy saying "If you don't, I will!"

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    2. 1:54 we support you Chivis, but you can do a lot more in memory of your brother, like get to the root of drug addiction on the US, like WHO STARTED IT under guise of the Vietnam War at least, "to fight communism", since the start, before "The Tonkin Incident" even LBJ despised as a reason for war, because war profiteers have been behind it since forever.
      By the way, fighting communism or the spanish colonistas in Latin America was the excuse for all the mayhem on the Banana Republics since their independence wars that left them slaves of US.

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  15. People have been dying from opiods for thousands of years. This is just another propaganda boogie man drug hysteria to get more funding and justify this stupid drug war. Remember they tried to pull the same shit with hash saying it was a new drug with 100% addiction rate and skyrocketing emergency room visits and blah blah. And how fast did the public call bullshit on that. Fenatyl has been around since the 1960s. The reason people overdose on Fen is because it is a less euphoric high than heroin so naturally people try to consume more which leads them to respiratory failure. A comon problem with fenatyl in general. Even in a medical setting.

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    1. Sorry but you are wrong on this one @4:33 PM.

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    2. If true, I'm sold. I am not a Darwinist but humanity has always been "survival of the fittest".
      I still feel for you Chivis and those people with an addict that causes you all those restless days and nights.

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    3. 9:03PM

      Darwin did not first use "survival of the fittest", it was the philosopher Herbert Spencer. Darwin only later used it in other editions of the Origin of Species. Biologists have very seldom used that phrase and mostly in popular writing and has been non-existent in the literature for over 50 years.

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  16. Really interesting and very sad story thanks for sharing it. Im sorry about your brother.

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  17. There are ads on the subways in NY to encourage people to have this on hand in case of OD. Wonder if the makers of Narcan are paying for the ads; not that I’m opposed to its use.Its kind of a rough ride: saves your life but puts you into withdrawal.

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    1. Who has 80 dollars for the Narcan to carry in their purses?
      It should be free for the asking at least in drug dens where people could be doing their shot safely, even supplying the drugs would be less expensive and deadly than this pinch war on drugs that adds riches to its warriors in and out of government and their banksters.

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  18. To Chivis: The traumatic and heartbreaking experiences you shared with us are highly valued by me particular because I have known many Chicano "tecatos (male and female) who lived la Vida loca mainly in LA and Orange counties, CA.

    As curious person, it fascinated me how injections of few milligrams of heroin could dramatically change personalities into heroin seeking automatons. This happened to three members of my large extended family on my wife's side. One of these tecatos told me many things about the tecatos world and about jail and prison life... including street and prison gangs.

    I learned about the "tecatos gusano" a heroin hungry extremely demanding parasite that lives and grows in the tecato's viscera and can never be killed....
    only pacified with its food of opiates/opioids.

    I learned about how many of them started out chipping and got hooked (infected with the tecato gusano) and of the daily cycle of (1) hustle (work) for the gusano's food, (2) copping the food (3) ritually feeding (fixing) the gusano and (4) enjoyING the wonderful peace and dreams the parasite gives it's host at being fed.

    IMO, the tecato gusano metaphor above is useful and has important implications for prevention and treatment that lay people can relate to. For example, the goal of treatment could be defined as (a) "finding ways of putting the immortal junkie parasite to sleep (b) keeping the gusano asleep by avoiding acts and situations that might awaken it and (c) changing the definition of self and others to make items a, b, and c easier to apply as a virtually permanent part of one's being.

    ..... I now turn to the topic of rehab programs:
    1. I think many of them are glorified ambulance chasing scams that like leeches suck the hope and wealth from families and taxpayers! You see the implied overpromising feelgood and their subtle caveats if the rehab fails to deliver. It makes livid with anger when I run across loved ones who put much hope and wealth into faux rehab programs like the ones that advertise on TV. The drug treatment (or rehab) industry has many faults and sooner or later these scandalous attributes will have to be revealed to the public and taxpayers. In closing,Q. whose fault is it if an addict relapses? Ans. Why the addict of course. Q. What happens when loved ones run out of insurance or money for rehab? Well good luck, pray, or a sophisticated professional "tough shit."

    I am not condemNing all rehabs there are some that I actually admire greatly "if" the addict is willing to undergo drastic personality and lifestyle changes Victory Outreach and Teen Challenge come to mind.... there may be others of this ilk available as I have not kept up for a few years and rehabs are popping up everywhere with the smell of money.


    BTW: I have know a number of heroin addicts who "retired" from their heroin using for two or more years without benefit of any professional treatment at all. There is some literature on this topic of natural recovery from opiate addiction.

    Chivis: Your post about your brother hit me hard and is part of the reason I went off on a rant about opiate/opioid addicts and faux rehabs. I hope you understand that I mean well and feel we have overlapping similar experiences concerning the world of tecatos.

    Chivis, thanks for the tremendous contributions you make for Borderlands Beat. You are a most definantly a significant other in America.... a "Chingona" in barrio-speak.
    Mexico-Watcher
    P.S. please excuse my keyboarding pendejadas.



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    1. Mexico Watcher thank you for your input! BTW I am all in for Teen Challenge and agree with you on treatment and works best IF the person isn't pushed.

      my brothers story has a compelling side to it that I did not share. and it was how/why he began his addiction in the first place. I know many brown and black kids share his story of how they began. but maybe for another day

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  19. Chivis: Thanks for your feedback.

    About Teen Challenge (TC) many years ago I was interested in how heroin addicts made prolonged abstinences of over 2 years from heroin "without professional" treatment or methadone. I met a number of Chicanos who were in TC and I was very impressed by the TC program. From this I learned several things about rehabs that I value greatly.

    You mentioned about how your brother got addicted and about having views on how brown and black youth get hooked on heroin (drugs ?) and I am very interested in what you have to say. about this.

    I look forward to your views on TC and "any" other topic concerning drug rehabs you might want to discuss.
    Mexico-Watcher

    Mexico-Watcher

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  20. High success rate...no doubt the young ages of addicts in the program is a factor as well. take a look at this award winning video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei_94idu11s&feature=youtu.be

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  21. Classic enabling behavior. Assumption of the risk. Ride the horse, expect the buck and being thrown to the ground (or 6 feet under).

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  22. Chivis: Thanks for the referral to Teen Challenge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei_94idu11s&feature=youtu.be

    Wow! This faith based TX program has sure grown tremendously. When I was doing my research , there were only about 3 or 4 settings.
    Thanks
    Mexico-Watcher

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